Dr Ling Liong Sik interview in theSun Weekend

:: theSun Weekend | 1 April 2005 :: When he took over stewardship of Malaysia's largest Chinese political party, the MCA, it was a baptism of fire. He battled to repair the wounds from a bruising leadership struggle, save the party's headquarters from being sold to repay debts and went on to tackle the deposit-taking cooperative crisis.

And when Tun Dr Ling Liong Sik, 62, stepped down from the presidency nearly two years ago, it was an exit that rode on the back of a leadership crisis that nearly broke up the party. Many allegations of misuse or abuse of power were hurled against him in the years of infighting, and his reputation was besmirched.

He faced it coolly, and even today refuses to discuss them openly. The MCA honorary life president, who has gone down in history as the longest-serving party president, has dedicated the third chapter of his life (his "third career" as he calls it) to building up Universiti Tunku Abdul Rahman (Utar).

Though he takes a keen interest in the political development of MCA, he tells Lee Boon Siew and Ng Kee Seng in a recent interview that he does not give advice to the new leaders unless it is solicited. "When you retire, you must really retire."

theSun: Yang Berbahagia Tun, thank you for taking time off for this interview. It's been almost two years since you stepped down as MCA president to enable a succession plan to take effect. What has been keeping you busy?
Tun: My first, and most important thing, is to see to the establishment and growth of Universiti Tunku Abdul Rahman (Utar). This is the most important thing that I have chosen to do, or entrusted to do, in what I call my third career in my 60s. The first career, or the first 30 years, is my education and medical practice. My second 30 years is my political career, starting with my election as Mata Kuching MP (in Penang) in 1974. So, now is the next phase, whether for 10, 20 or 30 years, I say thank you for whatever comes. Having being involved in Tunku Abdul Rahman College (TARC) for 35 years, the last 18 as TARC chairman, starting with the campus in Setapak, to Penang, Kampar, Segamat, Karak and Kota Kinabalu. With TARC intake growing from 6,000 to some 30,000 today, gradually we will have about 10,000 Utar graduates every year. Of course, I have resigned as college chairman and handed it over to (president Datuk Seri Ong) Ka Ting. Lifelong Learning activities also fit into TARC activities.

Now we have started Utar. I am now only helping the management to build it with help from my experience and networking. I am quite happy with how Utar has shaped up. Utar was approved on July 5, 2001. In less than a year, 10.6.02, we already started classes with the first 411 students.

The groundbreaking in Kampar was launched in January 2003. So, 2002 we opened our doors, 2003 our numbers (students) went up from 411 to 3,800, and then by January last year, I think we had about 7,200 students. This year, we hit 8,300. This year in May, the first batch of 2000 students will graduate. We are happy that the prime minister has agreed to officiate the convocation in August. Now, you may ask why student intake is growing like that. Because we first started with eight courses. Then it went up to 12 courses. Now we are dealing with 21 courses. Next year when you come to talk to me, it may be 29 or 30 courses. TARC is running 112 courses. That is what has been keeping me busy.

What else has been keeping you busy?
Going to Kampar often to inspect the progress of the Utar campus construction site which is expected to be completed by next year-end. I must add here that there are some people passing remarks and rumours about my Mercedes Benz car, travelling overseas and driver. My presence here (in Utar) is absolutely free (for Utar). My driver is my own, my petrol is my own, my car is my own, my flight overseas are all my own. I pay everything from my own pocket. I don't think it is proper for people to pass such remarks. I have benefited a lot from my long stint as MCA president. I have the experience in terms of contacts, and I think I am in a good position to use my contacts in the government to return favour to the party. My pension is enough to keep me going. My other position in Transmile Group Bhd is also keeping me occupied. I have been invited to chair Transmile. I'm here to assist as chairman of Utar Council in a non-executive position. Whenever my help is needed, they will let me know.

Politics?
When you retire, you must really retire. Because I learnt from very good ... I have very good examples. When I took over from Tan Koon Swan, all former leaders left me alone, gave me the freedom to lead. And they did not interfere. And I think I should learn from this. If I go and give advice, they may not be taken. If your advice is solicited, give lah, as a good friend and all that. But don't go and shout all over.

Has it been all work and no play?
You look at my (skin) colour, you know I have been playing golf. I am a sportsman by nature. And now there is more time. I can also go to the gym, twice, three times a week. And that is very beneficial. You exercise all your muscles. Then your game (golf) also becomes much better and you enjoy your games much better. This is also what is keeping me busy.

You have gone down in history as MCA's longest-serving president. Have you been able to realise all your visions for the party during your reign? What were your shining moments and your regrets?
If you remember history, when I took over in (19)86, the party and Chinese community were undergoing a terrible time. The (MCA) building was going under receivership, owing millions, and millions and millions. The interest we pay every month was RM400,000. The cooperatives were collapsing, one after the other. Hundreds of thousands of depositors were really crying, their life savings were gone. Because it was recession time. Even The Star nearly went into receivership. That was the baptism of fire, because whoever thought Tan Koon Swan would have met such a great, I mean, challenge, so to speak. He had to retire, I had to take over. We were not prepared. But we had enough friends, enough advisers, and the party stood by us. That was a very terrible time. Real baptism of fire. But, as God would have it, we got through all those problems. All the depositors got back dollar for dollar, the building is now debt-free, not owing a single sen, and The Star is now a thriving newspaper. And once you do all these things, the members have an increased faith in you. That you can face challenges, you can select a team around you, you can overcome challenges. And that gave me a much smoother drive forward.

Those were the first challenges. Then came other things.

We could see the pressure on us for TAR college places. Every time examination results were out, students everywhere were unable to gain entry into colleges and public universities. So, we had to get on the horse again and run all over the country to raise funds to expand TARC. And we met our targets. Now we have 30,000 students in our TARC campuses. There was a lot of pressure. Today, we don't get this kind pressure for places because we have so many campuses. That took me a good few years. And what speaks very well of our members and organisers who helped me, every time a fund raising was carried out, there was not a whisper about mismanagement of funds. You know, the DAP would have loved to raise doubts or question us. I remember the first time we raised funds, (current DAP secretary-general Lim) Guan Eng tried to derail us by trying to confuse the people by saying that donating to Utar is like paying, second, third or fourth taxes. People didn't want to even listen to them (the DAP). They just paid up and knew we were a reliable force, and knew the pressures.

So, that was tremendous satisfaction, being able to build quickly the campuses, and of course we got cleverer and cleverer as we went along.

Penang was the first one I remember. I asked (Tan Sri Loh) Boon Siew, let's have some land. So he sold me the Vale of Tempe, 20 acres there. And he told me, he says for RM10.90 per sq ft, "Chi leh chap goh khor, wah beh chap khor (Hokkien: This is RM15 but I sell for RM10), "Pnuah beh, pnuah sang" (Hokkien: Part sale, part donation). Today, the land is worth RM50, RM60 per sq ft.

When we went to Johor, when we needed a campus there, I said we were not paying anymore because we saw what happened in Penang. We built a campus there, the whole area's land prices shot up. All the houses were easily occupied because students are staying there.

So we say we are not paying anymore. We will put the campus here. But you must give me the land. Because you are going to benefit. If you have got 5,000 acres, you give me 50 acres (and) your 4,950 acres all go up (in value), even 10 sen "lu than liao lor" (Hokkien: you already make a profit).

The third time, we went to Kampar, again we said we were not paying. You give me the land free plus RM5 million to help us build. So this is how we developed TARC. Because you learn more and more. By the time Utar came along, (Perak MB Datuk Seri) Tajol (Rosli) and others say, come-lah, I said you give me an offer I can't refuse-lah, because a university will be valuable anywhere. So, all in 1,300 acres (in Kampar), at RM800 per acre. Very, very cheap.

Then came other things, like education issues which were discussed at length. We then launched the Langkawi Project to help rural students raise their level of education.

I also saw there was a gap in treatment of men and women. Therefore, I decided to make a change. We were the first to change our (party) constitution to give women a much larger role in MCA, that in every division it is compulsory to have the women's wing. I think that changed a lot of Chinese women's attitudes towards MCA, giving them hope. And these are the things that helped us win in (19)95 and (19)99 very handsomely in the general elections. So, it was timely, we complemented each other in Barisan Nasional. Therefore now, if you look at the numbers, I think there are more women members than MCA Youth (members). It shows how encouraged they were. Previously, we had a sprinkling of them here and there, not organised, not well planned. A day will come when they will clamour for a role to play. But if you don't change the structure, they will never be encouraged to come in.

What about regrets?
I do not even want to think about regrets. What's the use? What's the use of reflecting on things that are negative. Of course in life, anybody who claims he never made mistakes is telling the biggest lie. I think all of us have. But do you need to remember all those things? Even for the positive, we have to move forward. I prefer to talk just about positives.

During your tenure, the party's prolonged leadership struggle almost broke it up. On hindsight, could you and would you have handled the crisis differently?
There is a reason for everything. But I choose not to talk about it, the reasons, publicly. Some people, some of my close friends know the reasons, know why I did certain things. But today, everything is going well and good. The best potential young leaders are in place. And that is very satisfying to me, managing to put the two young men in place. There is now leadership stability because there is now a new equilibrium, and they went through the general election very well. Fully accepted by the community, that is the true test. Had they failed then I would be very sad; blame myself that I didn't put the right things together. The fact is they blended their talents and that was enough to hold the party together. And they won the elections very well, and complemented the whole Barisan Nasional. So that is the end result. Why I did certain things at certain point in time? That's no point-lah. This is the best end result. If you can't achieve the best end result, it will be chaotic. Then you will be blamed by BN and all that.

Can you give us some insight into the Peace Plan brokered by Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad?
Dr Mahathir is a fatherly figure. Time was coming up for a general election and he wanted to cool things down. And he succeeded. And of course when things cooled down, I had the opportunity to start talking to the young people. No one thought we could come up with this kind of formula. He had very, very good intentions. In order to cool things down, maintain status quo-lah, that's all. In some places, some were not happy, other places they were happy, but generally we respected the wisdom of Dr Mahathir. Political struggles are always present in any party. Sometimes, very often, it happens because of dissatisfaction. It was not easy, we needed a cooling-off period when people could sit back and ask why we were wasting our time and getting nowhere. Better to sit down coolly and chart the way forward than continue with the building up of heat which brings no positive result. In those days, even the buying of Nanyang, because of this heat, everything becomes political. And it was not even me alone who though Nanyang is good. We had 80% Central Committee support. It even went to the emergency general meeting, and we got majority support. It was not a one-man decision. We went through the whole democratic process. In normal times like now, all that would not have happened. Because, which political party in the world don't want to buy a press. Which political party in the world would leave it to the opposition or a competing force? You know what I mean? No such thing. All political parties want a mouthpiece because the job of a political party is to communicate. And this is an essential instrument to communicate. Today, if I am the president of MCA and offered a TV station, I will take it. It is part of the political process. How can you say you don't want to take it and let another party take it.

Do you think the party has healed sufficiently to move forward and fulfil its political agenda?
The facts prove it. The last general election was by a new leadership and they did handsomely.

Speculations are rife on the fights for top posts in the upcoming party elections in August. Among the names that have cropped up are Datuk Dr Chua Soi Lek, who you hand-picked to be the new leaders, and Datuk Chua Jui Meng. Do you think there will be a free-for-all?
I started by saying that I have retired. Although I have a keen interest in the development of the party, but in terms of policies, in terms of planning, in terms of forecasting, these are things for the new leadership to handle. I should not interfere. I may have my own thoughts but those are my personal private thoughts. As I said, that was what the older leaders presented me when I became president, I must maintain that.

All sorts of accusations were hurled at you by the Opposition and detractors during your tenure as party president and Cabinet minister, including allegations of misuse or abuse of power. You have chosen to keep relatively quiet on some of them. Why? Will they not continue to haunt you?
When people throw allegations at you, I always say, if it's true, it will stick forever. If it is not true, it will just blow off your back because there is no truth in it. I choose not to discuss it but leave it to the courts. All the allegations have gone to the courts and (have been) settled. I also do not wish to accuse others of things that I have no evidence of.

What do you think of (Opposition Leader) Lim Kit Siang who has raised many issues against you?
I must say he's got quite some stamina. Doing the same boring things and getting nowhere (laughs). And getting more and more irrelevant. Our backbenchers are so much more lively today. They have taken over the role of the Opposition more constructively. Their statements are more attractive because they are also more educated.

The party has decided to limit the president's term of office. Is this the answer to easing leadership struggles?
This was not during my time ... We go round the world; we have two types of system. In America, you have 4+4, maximum two terms; Latin America you have six years, just one term; in England, India no limitations. So, obviously there is no gospel truth in any one of these systems. Whether this is effective or not, whether we have to change will depend on changing circumstances.

Now, maybe in the wisdom of the present leadership, this is the way to bring about stability. You don't know how long it is going to last; whether or not it will last forever. Politics like all else, is dynamic. Never static, never without change. Nothing is permanent.

Why do you think long-serving deputies of political parties in Malaysia seem to find difficulty in ascending to pole position? Is it because they are usually not good enough for the No. 1 post?
We have a lot of successors, you know. Pak Lah succeeded, I succeeded from No. 2 to No. 1, Samy Vellu succeeded from No. 2 to No. 1.

What about those who had served very long as deputies but did not make it?
If you talk about Umno, you must not forget you are talking about Dr Mahathir, you are talking about a Superman. Super visionary, very sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. And therefore he could lead very well. And I must say his sense of timing is fantastic. Dr M represents a different category of leadership quality. Others could not match him. To be No. 2 is the most difficult job in the world. Too active also wrong, too inactive also wrong. So, very difficult, especially when the No. 1 calls all the shots. How to balance between right or wrong?

There is a growing segment of the Chinese community and its non-governmental organisations which feel the MCA has distanced itself from issues that are sensitive to Umno. Is this true?
This again is very sensitive for to me to touch on because it infringes on the role of the present leadership which I should not interfere. Every group of leaders has its own style, its own capabilities, its own way of handling matters. It need not be the same as mine. It involves a sense of timing, judging the body language of fellow leaders, etc ... all are critical to success or failure.

Being a long-serving member of the government, can you give us your thoughts on the concept of power-sharing and whether it has undergone changes over the past four decades?
Basically, in a multi-ethnic society, you have no choice. You have to work together, share, care, and go forward together. Being multi-ethnic, we started off by being very conflict-prone because we don't know each other well. Looking at it historically, we came from different fields, different culture, different foods, everything different. We put them together, it's chemistry for violence. And if you look back in Malaysian history, we were fighting. In Batu Pahat, in Perak, all over, wherever they came into contact they fought. One fella doesn't eat pork, the other fella eats pork; some eat fish; some drink, some couldn't drink. And when they drink, some behave properly, some behave very violently. So, we had to manage it. What better system than a leadership showing a good example. MCA and Umno formed an Alliance to contest the Kuala Lumpur municipal elections in 1952 and won the elections with overwhelming support. We worked together, we shared. We were successful until May 13, 1969. There were major conflicts. So, like any other countries which had major conflicts, we went back and formed a grand alliance, got everybody in. We got PAS in, we got Gerakan, we got PPP, everybody in. Until a day when you can either split up again, or it works so very well, we continue. In our circumstances, we kicked PAS out because they were creating a lot of problems and tension within. But Gerakan and PPP remained. The different circumstance allowed this change. So, we had no choice. But once you work together, the pivotal element that comes to the fore is trust. We work at close range. We learn the characters of one another. Are they trustworthy? Do they run away when you are in trouble? Do they stand by you? These are the values, the character of the person. Not his race, not his religion, not his colour. It is the character that counts. Don't care whether he is Chinese, Malay, or Indian. But, if his character is good, "ehsai cho peng yu" (Hokkien: can befriend him). Once there is trust, we can sit down and discuss, everything and anything goes-lah. Even the Opposition is trying to form a Barisan but it has been just a Barisan Tiruan (copycat front). A Barisan that lacks foundation, cooperation and trust. We, however, have gone through a lot of trials and tribulations for a trustworthy relationship that works.

Multi-ethnic unity is working well for Malaysia. Why is this not so for countries like Bosnia?
Sometimes cannot-lah. In the history of countries like Bosnia and the Balkans, they have been killing each other for hundreds of years. You definitely cannot put them together. They have been killing each other, the hatred for each other is so strong.

We were lucky. We were all lucky to be compartmentalised geographically. The majority of Malays were in villages, the Indians in estates and railways, and the Chinese mostly urban. There was less interaction until we tried to bring to them together under our federal policies. We formulated an education system which gave a common outlook, common content, common value and that was one of the key factors. We were liberal enough to allow the ethnic streams to carry on in Chinese schools, Tamil schools, we don't force everybody to go to only one stream. We also had the New Economic Policy (NEP) which brought everyone together economically and culturally.

Education, in particular national-type schools, has always and continue to be a sensitive and volatile issue. Why is that so?
National schools must be improved in that you must have mother-tongue education made freely available and professionally taught. A lot of Chinese are going to Chinese schools because mother-tongue education is available. Parents are not aspiring for their kids to be a professor of Chinese history. They only want them to be able to read Chinese newspapers and speak Chinese, and to be able to do business with the Chinese in China, that is about all. Not to be a PhD in Chinese. As long as you give them this opportunity, they are willing (to go to national schools). But that is also not the only reason but I need not go into the details. There are also good national schools, I came from one.

What do you think of Dong Jiao Zong's role in this era? Are they relevant?
The way the MCA handled the Chinese education issues, I must say, very, very efficient. Many school boards are headed by MCA leaders who are also Dong Jiao Zong members. So, our feedback is accurate. Of course we are in the government, we know how sensitive the Chinese education issue is. We have our ears, our antenna, everything on the ground, so we know exactly what is happening. And that is why (19)95 election, (19)99 election, education was not an issue because we have learnt how to handle it among ourselves. That is why I don't say whether they are relevant, irrelevant. But we have handled it (the issue) well, because all the board members and many Chinese school teachers are also MCA members.

Human rights and democracy are issues that relate to the community's demands to be treated as equal, as one Bangsa Malaysia in terms of education and economic opportunities. How pressing were these issues on your leadership watch?
These are issues which are handled every week at Cabinet meetings. Our sense of fairness is what is getting this country going so well. You don't get complete unfairness. Our sense of balance is very, very refined. And that is the Barisan spirit. That is why we get so much harmony because the the balance is well handled.

One of Vision 2020's target is to achieve a Bangsa Malaysia. In this regard, what's preventing MCA from taking the lead and transform itself into a multi-racial party?
To have Bangsa Malaysia, we must have economic parity. There must be national stability, peace and harmony. There must be a common value system, the right attitudes. You must see the values of character, not race, colour or creed. Those are the pillars of Bangsa Malaysia.

Now that you are playing a lead role in the birth of Utar, what is your vision for Utar?
Firstly, let me make it very clear. We talk about Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, they are 600, 700 years or older. And they all have huge endowments. Harvard US$24 billion (RM91.2 billion). We are two years old. Secondly, we are not a public university, not government-funded. We depend on fees to survive. But very fortunately, the community has contributed RM200 million which means we built our university, no debt-servicing. We don't have to borrow to build.

That helped us to keep our fees low at RM7,000 to RM9,000 per year, depending on the course of study. So what are we going to do? We are not aiming to be Oxford, Harvard, and all that. Not at this point of time. What we want to do is to stabilise Utar. We must have sufficient number of students. So, when our Kampar campus is ready end of next year, we will be able to accommodate about 18,000 students. Now we have about 8,300. We will retain some of our existing Utar facilities in Kuala Lumpur when the Kampar campus opens. In the long-term, we want to be able to depend less on fees. I have visited the University of Abertay Dundee where the world's biggest internet and computing research centre on video and virtual games is located. Also, University of Warwick where every year its researches yield some RM500 million in income. We are trying to tie up with them. If successful, we may be able to reduce our dependency on fee. In addition, I have also been visiting universities in India and China to forge links and cooperations with Utar. Both countries will be economic giants, making up some 40% of the world's population. So, we want the links because we think Malaysia will benefit economically from such links.

It must have been very stressful leading the MCA. What is your secret to managing stress?
Many people say I don't lose my temper. I normally talk about it in the context of crisis management. In Mandarin, it is Wei Ji (danger and opportunity). A crisis can either become very dangerous or an opportunity. So it depends on how you handle the crisis. If you mishandle it, it's dangerous. If you handle it well, it's an opportunity. So, when (you are) in a crisis, stay cool. Be willing to consult those cleverer than you. When you do that, the chances are the crisis becomes an opportunity. If you lose your temper, too much in a hurry, the chances are the crisis becomes a danger. Whenever you face any challenge, you will have to do it the way you are trained to do it. Your character features. Do what you want to do. Don't worry about the outcome. Do what you think is right. Do what you think is necessary and leave the result to God.